The following is a transcript of a Facebook post on 20th Feb. which solicited an interesting response from Vagrant Rambler. Although expressing an opposing view to my own, I find his arguments much more compelling than any of the Party Political, Media driven frenzy, that this important issue will attract. I hope this will become a much wider debate and I will be publishing update notification on FB and Twitter.
20 Feb 2016
Original Post - Tom
Brexit? You must be joking!
When Britain joined Europe, there was an industrial base and the country still lead the world in many technical and financial spheres. There were apprentices and a hugely skilled work force. Basic ingredients for independence. But without anyone doing a thing, the state was allowed to sell it's silverware, polytechnics became "universities", as we lost our skills and then we nodded our heads to the captains of industry when they sold all our assets and moved our machines to China.
And then we all went abroad on holiday.
Now, we don't make things, we import 60% of our food and lead the world in just a few niche high-tech areas, whilst we continue to sell our lives to the Chinese, who will now build our power stations. And the word "engineer" is still a dirty one. So only a suicidal idiot would pull out of the one community that lends us some autonomy and prevents Britain being totally gobbled up by multi-nationals.
Oh, and do shut up about immigrants. We are all immigrants, and without migration there would be no civilised world. And without migration today, we'd have no health service and most other service industries would collapse. So please stop thinking Britain is so smart that it can stand on it's own two feet. There are nowhere near enough skilled workers, our farms can not sustain us and the Bullingdon Boys want to see us all as subservient. Britain would become a slave to the rest of the world in no time. Unfortunately, the Great British Heritage and Culture is not enough to stop that!
Comment - Vagrant Rambler
Surely all of these bad things have been happening whilst we are a part of the EU anyway so it's not like Brussels has helped to stop it. It could be that being in the EU has facilitated the problems you have mentioned because a consequence of the globalisation doctrine of the last 15 years or so is that you stop making stuff or investing in you're own country if other countries will do it cheaper. Perhaps leaving the EU would be the first step to reinvesting in our own children's futures, taking control back from the multinationals, rebuilding our own industries and our social infrastructure and gaining some autonomy as a country again? Especially if the Tories were voted out next election in favour of a more left wing ideology. Also I see a high percentage of Europe that is far more right wing when it comes to immigration than we are as a nation and immigration occurs regardless of whether or not we are in the EU from all over the world. Your view point sounds to me like someone who's resigned themselves to living as a nation of slaves regardless of the outcome and you have turned the choice into who will be our future masters. I personally think sometimes you have to take one small step back to take two steps forward.
21 Feb 2016
Comment - Tom
Interesting response Mr Rambler! One of the main reasons I posted this is precisely because the idea of enslavement worries me no end, and China still hasn't forgiven us for the Opium Wars! And my use of "autonomy" is diametrically opposed to enslavement. As a Socialist, I still strongly believe in the Internationale; we should all stand together. Isolationism is not a good idea when there are so many big capitalist fish out there who WILL gobble us up. Corbyn recognises the need for this Internationale and he too wants us to stay in Europe. And if you really want a more left-wing government, Corbyn is about as good as it gets as this country has taken a step shift to the right and I hope beyond hope that he can take the next election. Unlikely, because so many British people have become scared stiff thanks to the media lies. And it is not Europe that destroyed our industries, otherwise how do you explain the continued industrial growth of Germany, France, Italy and Spain, who all still make a lot of things! No, it's the greed of the British captains of industry, who saw the billions they could pocket that encouraged the sell-off of British Industry. I think that final chapter occurred when Dyson moved his entire operation from Anglia to China. Not because of Europe, but because he wanted to make more money. Sorry, Mr. Rambler, but you come across as wanting to take us back to the fifties, but without the skills base we had then and with nearly everything in the hands of the Bullingdon Boys. And sorry, we just do not have enough qualified British people to run this country anymore. It is also worth noting that governments in Europe have continually shifted left and right over the years, with in fact the median being social democracy in some form or other because of proportional representation (another "revolutionary" European idea!). Yes, because of Islamophobia there has been a shift to the right in Europe, just like here. And as regards immigration (I am a Dutchman by the way) Germany has taken just one or two more refugees in than Britain! In fact many hundreds of thousands more! But finally, the most important thing to remember is that since the creation of Benelux, followed by the treaty of Rome there has been no pan-european war. Which is why you and I have grown up in relative peace. But if you want to join in with the likes of Duncan-Smith, Farrage and Gove, best of luck!
Comment - Vagrant Rambler
I don't even know where to begin. OK at the beginning. Europe is in general more right wing than Britain. Britain in general has contributed more to overseas aid and taken in more immigrants and refugees than anywhere in Europe, just not in the past couple of years. Europe is for all it's retoric less socialist than here. Germany made a big deal out of telling the world refugees were welcome and now a couple of months later the old style Germans are resurfacing with their hatey ways. All the public services are privately owned and privately run in Europe including their healthcare systems. They have no ideological or financial interest in helping us to maintain our far more socialist model. Neither do our Tory government, nor do the Americans. All of their big business interests are aligned and they are working in near symbiosis to take everything. What percentage of wealth do the 1% have now? As a socialist you should recognise that there is no internationally recognised system for socialism to be rolled out across the borders of countries that doesn't involve a huge amount of violence, civil unrest and war. We have no vote in other people's countries, they have no vote in ours. Our democracies are very much separated / divided. Big business however is a dictatorship with one clear simple objective . Take all the money. The European Union is an institution designed and run by people facilitating big business to achieve their aims and cannot be stopped by borders or even by our own democratically elected governments unless a country is given the choice to opt out and make it's own decisions by it's leaders. The devise by which Big Business can erode our rights must be removed from the system in order that each country can ascertain what is in the best interests of it's own people. Removing ourselves from the European Union would not affect the ability of socialist ideas to travel from one country to another. But it would effect Big business's ability to legislate against an entire continent in one go. Scaremongering about past wars does you no credit. There has been no European war because everyone in power recognises the futility of it. Interesting that you mention Smith and Gove as well, is it because the media told you to? Of course it's distasteful to side with them, and Farage too but my reasons are entirely different from theirs. Why do you feel the need to parrot media sponsored propaganda? I believe leaving the EU is the surest way to undermine the right wing politics of this country and Europe that are currently masquerading as for the good of the people, when they are so obviously detrimental and the best chance of getting a left wing government back in this country that will defend the people's rights to public services and a decent quality of life. The European Union protects us from nothing, and exposes us to everything. International socialists have no power here and protect us from nothing. Our own left wing will do the job if we enable it. A smaller success is better than an epic fail any day of the week. As for Corbyn, he's missing a trick, simply because he's now implying he and his party are too weak to fight without big old right wing Europe holding his hand and telling him what he can and can't do. Sturgeon's doing the same in Scotland. They should be joining forces and saying leave the EU, down with the Tories, lets get a working partnership going and let's sort this crap out, build up industries, invest in our children and take back our public services.
Brexit? You must be joking!
When Britain joined Europe, there was an industrial base and the country still lead the world in many technical and financial spheres. There were apprentices and a hugely skilled work force. Basic ingredients for independence. But without anyone doing a thing, the state was allowed to sell it's silverware, polytechnics became "universities", as we lost our skills and then we nodded our heads to the captains of industry when they sold all our assets and moved our machines to China.
And then we all went abroad on holiday.
Now, we don't make things, we import 60% of our food and lead the world in just a few niche high-tech areas, whilst we continue to sell our lives to the Chinese, who will now build our power stations. And the word "engineer" is still a dirty one. So only a suicidal idiot would pull out of the one community that lends us some autonomy and prevents Britain being totally gobbled up by multi-nationals.
Oh, and do shut up about immigrants. We are all immigrants, and without migration there would be no civilised world. And without migration today, we'd have no health service and most other service industries would collapse. So please stop thinking Britain is so smart that it can stand on it's own two feet. There are nowhere near enough skilled workers, our farms can not sustain us and the Bullingdon Boys want to see us all as subservient. Britain would become a slave to the rest of the world in no time. Unfortunately, the Great British Heritage and Culture is not enough to stop that!
Comment - Vagrant Rambler
Surely all of these bad things have been happening whilst we are a part of the EU anyway so it's not like Brussels has helped to stop it. It could be that being in the EU has facilitated the problems you have mentioned because a consequence of the globalisation doctrine of the last 15 years or so is that you stop making stuff or investing in you're own country if other countries will do it cheaper. Perhaps leaving the EU would be the first step to reinvesting in our own children's futures, taking control back from the multinationals, rebuilding our own industries and our social infrastructure and gaining some autonomy as a country again? Especially if the Tories were voted out next election in favour of a more left wing ideology. Also I see a high percentage of Europe that is far more right wing when it comes to immigration than we are as a nation and immigration occurs regardless of whether or not we are in the EU from all over the world. Your view point sounds to me like someone who's resigned themselves to living as a nation of slaves regardless of the outcome and you have turned the choice into who will be our future masters. I personally think sometimes you have to take one small step back to take two steps forward.
21 Feb 2016
Comment - Tom
Interesting response Mr Rambler! One of the main reasons I posted this is precisely because the idea of enslavement worries me no end, and China still hasn't forgiven us for the Opium Wars! And my use of "autonomy" is diametrically opposed to enslavement. As a Socialist, I still strongly believe in the Internationale; we should all stand together. Isolationism is not a good idea when there are so many big capitalist fish out there who WILL gobble us up. Corbyn recognises the need for this Internationale and he too wants us to stay in Europe. And if you really want a more left-wing government, Corbyn is about as good as it gets as this country has taken a step shift to the right and I hope beyond hope that he can take the next election. Unlikely, because so many British people have become scared stiff thanks to the media lies. And it is not Europe that destroyed our industries, otherwise how do you explain the continued industrial growth of Germany, France, Italy and Spain, who all still make a lot of things! No, it's the greed of the British captains of industry, who saw the billions they could pocket that encouraged the sell-off of British Industry. I think that final chapter occurred when Dyson moved his entire operation from Anglia to China. Not because of Europe, but because he wanted to make more money. Sorry, Mr. Rambler, but you come across as wanting to take us back to the fifties, but without the skills base we had then and with nearly everything in the hands of the Bullingdon Boys. And sorry, we just do not have enough qualified British people to run this country anymore. It is also worth noting that governments in Europe have continually shifted left and right over the years, with in fact the median being social democracy in some form or other because of proportional representation (another "revolutionary" European idea!). Yes, because of Islamophobia there has been a shift to the right in Europe, just like here. And as regards immigration (I am a Dutchman by the way) Germany has taken just one or two more refugees in than Britain! In fact many hundreds of thousands more! But finally, the most important thing to remember is that since the creation of Benelux, followed by the treaty of Rome there has been no pan-european war. Which is why you and I have grown up in relative peace. But if you want to join in with the likes of Duncan-Smith, Farrage and Gove, best of luck!
Comment - Vagrant Rambler
I don't even know where to begin. OK at the beginning. Europe is in general more right wing than Britain. Britain in general has contributed more to overseas aid and taken in more immigrants and refugees than anywhere in Europe, just not in the past couple of years. Europe is for all it's retoric less socialist than here. Germany made a big deal out of telling the world refugees were welcome and now a couple of months later the old style Germans are resurfacing with their hatey ways. All the public services are privately owned and privately run in Europe including their healthcare systems. They have no ideological or financial interest in helping us to maintain our far more socialist model. Neither do our Tory government, nor do the Americans. All of their big business interests are aligned and they are working in near symbiosis to take everything. What percentage of wealth do the 1% have now? As a socialist you should recognise that there is no internationally recognised system for socialism to be rolled out across the borders of countries that doesn't involve a huge amount of violence, civil unrest and war. We have no vote in other people's countries, they have no vote in ours. Our democracies are very much separated / divided. Big business however is a dictatorship with one clear simple objective . Take all the money. The European Union is an institution designed and run by people facilitating big business to achieve their aims and cannot be stopped by borders or even by our own democratically elected governments unless a country is given the choice to opt out and make it's own decisions by it's leaders. The devise by which Big Business can erode our rights must be removed from the system in order that each country can ascertain what is in the best interests of it's own people. Removing ourselves from the European Union would not affect the ability of socialist ideas to travel from one country to another. But it would effect Big business's ability to legislate against an entire continent in one go. Scaremongering about past wars does you no credit. There has been no European war because everyone in power recognises the futility of it. Interesting that you mention Smith and Gove as well, is it because the media told you to? Of course it's distasteful to side with them, and Farage too but my reasons are entirely different from theirs. Why do you feel the need to parrot media sponsored propaganda? I believe leaving the EU is the surest way to undermine the right wing politics of this country and Europe that are currently masquerading as for the good of the people, when they are so obviously detrimental and the best chance of getting a left wing government back in this country that will defend the people's rights to public services and a decent quality of life. The European Union protects us from nothing, and exposes us to everything. International socialists have no power here and protect us from nothing. Our own left wing will do the job if we enable it. A smaller success is better than an epic fail any day of the week. As for Corbyn, he's missing a trick, simply because he's now implying he and his party are too weak to fight without big old right wing Europe holding his hand and telling him what he can and can't do. Sturgeon's doing the same in Scotland. They should be joining forces and saying leave the EU, down with the Tories, lets get a working partnership going and let's sort this crap out, build up industries, invest in our children and take back our public services.
